Rethinking Remote Relationships

Few people have throught more intentionally about remote work than the amazing Kerri McKinney. Join us for another episode of Start with Who, to hear all about the shifting environment of remote work and how lead, manage, and communicate excellently with a remote team.

 

Overview

We're excited to welcome Kerri McKinney, Executive Recruiter at Modern Ventures to the pod (a quick note—when we recorded this, Kerri was serving as the Global Head of Talent at Terminal). She shares years of hard-earned wisdom about leading talent teams remotely, including...

  • How remote hiring and employment will evolve over the coming years
  • How managers need to think differently about communicating with and managing their teams in a remote environment
  • How to interview differently when hiring remotely
  • The challenges of hybrid models vs fully remote

Oh, and did we mention that Kerri forecasted Ben's abduction by aliens? Don't miss this phenomenal episode with Kerri McKinney!

Thanks for listening to Start with Who: The Interview Intelligence Podcast! This podcast is presented by Luma—where we're on a mission to make hiring and interviewing more efficient and equitable. Come check out what we're building, or connect with Grace and Ben on LinkedIn! See you next time!

Transcript

(Transcribed by robots...sorry for the errors!)

Kerri: From a leadership standpoint, I think when you have a remote team, you have a lot of different personalities, you have to get to know and you don't have that time where you can run into them in the hallway or have a one on one meeting with them and see their body language and just get that kind of sense of how they're doing. So recruiting leaders are definitely going to have to edit in, I guess, rethink the way that they build relationships with their teams.

Hosts: Welcome to Start with Who, the interview intelligence podcast, I'm your host, Grace Tyson, and I'm Ben Battaglia join us on our journey as we learn about talent acquisition, hiring and tackle the challenge of building an amazing team. One interview at a time. We've invited CEOs, innovative people, leaders, talent acquisition experts and DIY movers and shakers as our guides would love to have you join us. Welcome to Start with Who.

Grace: Welcome back to another episode of start with who we are here with, one of my favorite people. Welcome, Kerri.

Kerri:Well, thank you.

Grace: We're so excited to have you. Could you tell our listeners about who you are and what you do in 60 seconds?

Kerri: Yes, so I'm Kerri McKinney. I am currently the global head of talent for Terminal, a remote teams platform where we basically build engineering teams for really fast growing companies. And then working remotely for over 10 years, then in recruiting just as long. So really excited to be here.

Grace: Well, that's a perfect segue into what we want to talk to you about, which is remote work. So you have 10 years of experience working remotely. And we'd love to talk to you about the world of remote work after a pandemic. Tell us, first of all, why are you a remote work evangelist?

Kerri: Gosh, I could probably take 45 minutes to answer that question, but I'll keep it super simple. So when I actually started working remotely, it was kind of in between the time. I just had my first son. And I was like, I don't want to go back to work, but I can't be a stay at home mom. So I was like, there has to be a better way. And this is back in 2010. So there weren't a lot of remote jobs. And I ended up finding one and it was stressful. But just being able to have that flexibility of saying, you know, I can give my best right now, but something may come up in the middle of the day. I just started getting used to it. And the more that I did it, the more that I kind of figured out, like, hey, I can work in not the same amount of hours and not the same structured set of hours that most people do and get twice as much done. So that was kind of the push for me to say, I'm never going back into an office again.

Ben: I love that. When we first met a few months back, you mentioned to me that you think the world will move more towards remote. Obviously, I think we all agree after this pandemic grow used to it. And the rise of remote is going to continue to happen, just as you think about what changes. That's going to need to happen for people and talent leaders and recruiting leaders, like how will they start to need to think about their jobs differently as a result of remote being increasingly?

Kerri: That's a good question. I think it's going to impact so many different parts of whether it's leading a recruiting team or where you're hiring or how you're hiring. I think it's going to impact everything from a leadership standpoint. I think when you have a remote team, you have a lot of different personalities. You have to get to know and you don't have that time where you can run into them in the hallway or have a one on one meeting with them and see their body language and just get that kind of sense of how they're doing. So recruiting leaders are definitely going to have to edit and, I guess, rethink the way that they build relationships with their teams, because everyone is going to have a different personality. And you're going to have to make sure that you truly understand how to get connected to that person on your team in the remote environment.

Ben: Yeah, that's so interesting. I think the biggest difference is this idea of connection. I think you hit it right on there that people feel like, oh, if I'm remote, I feel less connected. Or I had someone say to me the other day, they feel like work is more transactional. When you're a yes, how do you think you begin to counter that transactional and stuff like slack? I need something from you and actually build community or culture when we're all remote.

Kerri: One of the things that I personally do is I make sure I don't use Slack specifically for work. So if I go to someone on my team and every message is just, hey, I need this or hey, this is work, we need to talk about this, that's a red flag for me. I want to see. How are you? How was your day? Tell me about your week, or I make sure that I remember things about each person. So if someone on my team is really big into sports, I can say, hey, did you see that game? So just being aware of those type of things, I'm also really big into using expressions and Slack in a sense that I think it's important to include emojis and just that type of personality in it, because your team wants to be able to see that side of you as well. And I think when you come across that way, it just makes everyone. So much more comfortable when you talk to them remotely.

Grace: That's great. We are a big fan of gifts in our Slack channels, particularly recently. Ben and I are on a Schitt's Creek gift's binge that I love them. Yes, they're so fun, it definitely it brings personality and honestly, what you're talking about sounds like even beyond remote, just good leadership skills, like remembering things about people human.

Kerri: Yeah and I think that this past year and the pandemic and covid, it kind of shined a light on all of these parts of leadership that are important regardless. But when you get into a remote environment, it's all magnified. So you can't really get along pretending or coasting like you have to pay attention and be engaged when you're a remote leader.

Grace: Throughout your time being. But have you worked with any leaders specifically who are new to being remote? And if so, what have you seen as the common mistakes or challenges that they face? Yeah, I mean, we have even some that my team are at Terminal right now. A lot of us worked remotely, but there were some people who were just used to meeting with their teams and office sales specifically. And so I think even just the little things like we talked about, like the engagement and making sure that you don't keep it all business. We definitely saw, I think, some struggles with people who hadn't managed remotely because they kind of felt, OK, this is the only time I have to talk to them. So I need to make sure that I'm getting everything across at the same time. And so implementing some of those async communication styles and setting those expectations when people start has helped a lot, I think making sure that everyone's on the same page.

Grace: That's great. That makes a ton of sense. And it's been an interesting transition for so many people over the last year who haven't had experience leading remote teams. And I agree on the sales side, too. There's a hubbub in the sales pit near the office. And so creating that buzz remotely is just interesting. It's been a unique challenge, I would say.

Ben: So, you know, you talked about the changes needed for remote, but one of our early guests on the podcast talked about the challenges of hybrid. So that if you're all in the office, that's one thing. And it's your remote, that's another. But what it looks like a large percentage of companies are thinking about going to right now is this hybrid model and that presents unique challenges. Do you have any thoughts about how to blend in office culture with a remote culture?

Kerri: I think hybrid models are by far the hardest models to long term have been successful. When you are on video and half of your team is in person and half of them are at home, it doesn't matter how much you tell the people in the room to include whoever is on the video and make sure you're asking them questions. You can tell them all they want to engage the people on video. It's just different. It's a hard one. Really good tip that I have for anyone who's thinking about doing a hybrid is if you have people who are working in the office and at home and they're going to be in the same meeting, make everyone log in individually, regardless of where they are. And that, I think, helps. So much.

Grace: Yes, I totally agree. My first experience with being sort of th, we weren't exactly remote, but when I opened an office for a previous company in Amsterdam, it was our small group, our small team in Amsterdam, and then the rest of the company in Boston. And so every time we dial in to meet, I mean, it it started to really drive me bananas like they were late. We had no idea whether the meeting was starting. We couldn't hear anyone asking questions and we'd never get a word in. And so I've also turned to that to or it's like everyone needs to be dialed in on their own computer with their face visible regardless. And also, I love getting the people who are remote to weigh in first, like actually intensifies it. Otherwise you start to feel like a second class citizen.

Kerri: Totally you have to make sure you're intentional when you're doing that hybrid model. Yo,

Grace: what's your take on the future of remote work in a year or and then in five years?

Kerri: I think even in a year versus five years, it's going to be drastically different. I mean, I think this next year, we're going to see a lot of companies figuring out, I shouldn't say figure out if they want to be remote or in person, because I think most companies know that they have to have some sort of remote aspect. But I think it's going to be, how can we be successful? And, you know, we'll probably see companies who will say, OK, well, remote in person a few days a week, but we still want to hire in the same location. I think in five years, we're not going to see that at all. We're going to see people who are living out of their airstream in the middle of Montana working.

Grace: And it will be you.

Kerri: Yes I mean. And, you know, I just think I think people are going to realize that they have to get more flexible and with that is going to come the interview process shifts and making sure that you're interviewing and asking the right questions when you're hiring remotely, because some of those expectations and backgrounds that people looked for and would typically hire for, like that's all going to change because they're going to want people who can work independently and have that self motivation. So you have to make sure you're screening and asking the right questions to the right candidates to make sure you're hiring the right person. That was a really long making sure you're doing it right, but it does all affect every different part until they are hired and beyond.

Ben: Absolutely I want to come back to all the interviewing stuff because I want to catch up on that for a long time. And hear your thoughts about that. But before that, you mentioned 5 years. The location will look really different. How much of that. Do you think will be not just national but global? So one of the things terminal does really well is a global talent. And so I would love to hear your thoughts about remote work in the United States. Is it going to be mostly like you work from anywhere in the United states, or do you think the talent pool will actually start to broaden as a result of that. And be more international?

Kerri: Yeah, I think 100% It's going to become more international. I mean, even pre covid, you know, we still had people come to terminal wanting to hire outside of the us, but it was OK. I want to hire at one of your hubs and I want to hire where they have access to office space. But now we have people who are like, I don't care where they are. I don't care what time zone they're in, as long as they can get the job done, like, I don't care. And so I think we're going to start seeing more of those candidates moving internationally and overseas because they want to work in places they've never lived. And I think with that, we're going to see a lot more around immigration and those type of questions that a lot of hiring managers probably never thought they were going to have to deal with.

Ben: Yeah, it's like a whole new challenge for talented people leaders.

Kerri: It really is, Yeah. Do we do this. Well, when we're operating in. So many different. Yes and there are things like compensation when you're hiring remotely like, how do we keep it fair? How do we know where to pay? What if someone moves from a different location? So there are all these different aspects that people just never thought of. And they're going to have to start keeping at the front of their mind and figuring it out if they want candidates to look at them as a successful remote company and remote first company.

Ben: Absolutely you mentioned once when we were chatting that you think the role head of remote or like independent roles focused exclusively on remote work will start to emerge in businesses. What do you think that's going to look like?

Kerri: I think we're going to start seeing how remote for a lot of bigger companies like, obviously, we have get love. And daryn, Murph is like famous head of remote Facebook, just hired someone. So I think at these bigger companies, I've seen a lot of titles like head of employee experience. So I think we'll start seeing more roles that are focused on the remote aspect. But I don't know if we'll see head of remote as much as it will first be kind of intertwined with other people's roles. And more and more companies will either say, OK, this is a full time job, we need to figure this out. And hire someone or what function does this make sense to sit in?

Grace: Yeah, that completely makes sense. I want to pivot like BNZ and camp on the interviewing piece for a minute. What is different in interviewing and hiring remotely versus in person. And what should be different?

Kerri: I think it's completely different. I think that a lot of hiring managers, when we and we saw this when the switch went to covid, it was OK, I know how to interview. I'm just going to take everything I did. And put it over Zoom. And if you're hiring people to work remotely, you have to make sure that you are equally comparing the soft skills to the hard skills. My team specifically, we focus on a set of core competencies when it comes to the soft skills for hiring remotely. So autonomy, resourcefulness, self motivation, collaboration and communication skills and a lot of these tie hand in hand together. But you have to make sure that you're hiring people who know how to ask questions when they need help. And they're sitting in the middle of their office by themselves. And you need to know that you have these self-motivated people who will go find something to do at the company to make their job impactful and help and make the company better. And If you are just focusing on exactly the skills to get the job done when interviewing candidates, you are going to continue to rehire over and over until you find those people who can work successfully in a remote environment.

Grace: I mean, I love the focus that you all have on core competency based interviewing and really being intentional about how do you assess that? Do you have an example, questions that you ask to get at that or how do you assess that?

Kerri: Yeah, I mean, I think the behavioral based questions when it comes to the soft skills are really helpful. So starting off as like, tell me about a time or walk me through a project that you started, and implemented on your own, or tell me about a time where you had to lead a group with minimal direction. So asking those type of questions where you're not only giving them an opportunity to share an experience with you, but they're walking you through their thought process around it, and that really will help you see how do they approach situations when they are completely alone and in a remote world, those have really been helpful in be able to identify those candidates who we long term will be successful, working remotely.

Grace: That's great. And then on the flip side of the coin, I know something you're really passionate about is the candidate experience. So, of course, assessing talent is one side of the coin. And then the other side is the candidate experience. How do you think about creating an amazing candidate experience in a remote world?

Kerri: I love that question. I mean, besides Luma, of course. And, you know, just having that real human interaction, I think one of the things that we do is really focus on the culture. And so when we're talking to candidates and asking them about their experience and screening, we also want to know what type of culture do you feel like you thrive in best? You know, what are you looking for? What is your ideal environment? And then that will kind of help us figure out, OK, based on what they're looking for. This is probably the best role for them. Let's talk to them about this one or maybe this one. But I think something to keep in mind from a candidate perspective, now that we're shifting to a more remote, focused world, is there are going to be some candidates who are used to being that top 5% in their market, go to San Francisco or Austin. We probably all have those people in common who, if you need a product or eng leader, we probably know the same people. But now that it's going to get remote, we're going to be hiring remotely. Candidates are going to have a much bigger competition. You know, it's not going to be finding the best engineering leader in Austin. It's I don't care where they are. And we've been hearing that from candidates that they do feel like it is a more competitive market in a sense that they don't have to compete with just people locally anymore. Everyone is a small fish in a giant pond, basically, and a Global Fund. Well, that's interesting.

Ben: So then if you're a leader who is looking to source talent, I feel like it goes both ways. Like candidates, there's more competitiveness. But also, if you want to recruit talent like,

Kerri: oh, it's a mess out there right now.

Ben: Yes as a small company or a company that's not a Facebook or a Google, how do you begin to find great talent then? Oh, the never ending question.

Kerri: I think for me, it's a really simple answer. And this is like this is what I say to every candidate. And I will say, because of the pandemic, I think that stability factor is a little bit more enhanced when it comes to what people are looking at for jobs. But if you want to work at Facebook or Google and compare it to like coming to a Terminal where you're going to completely build something from scratch and get to literally have an impact on the entire company versus, you know, that one little nugget you get to work on when you're in Google of the zillion people. I think that's kind of the big selling point for us. And I think companies like Facebook and Google are going to have a harder time with the whole remote first remote friendly. And so I think candidates also need to keep that in mind when they're looking for new positions, because I think when you go to a startup or a smaller company, you're going to have more flexibility and autonomy to work remotely.

Grace: Yes, I'm excited about this shift because I know that you are a big fan of travel and working from anywhere. And I feel the same way when you're talking about Europe. Yep, I'm going to be who knows where we're all going? I'll be somewhere.

Kerri: I love it. We have some I have someone on my team who's been in Mexico for like three months. I'm pretty sure he just rented an apartment. And I'm like, are you ever going back to Canada? He's like, I don't know, maybe, maybe not. And you don't have to know.

Grace: Which is so cool, I just think this is such a more human centric way of in my opinion, it's like, yes, we have life, we have families, we have other things to take care of besides work. And we can do it all. We can have it all. We can do whatever we want. I love it.

Ben: Yes I feel like along with a switch to remote has come pandemic level insecurity and stress. Yeah and thus I feel like a lot of people have this opinion of remote work that some people are like remote work is great. And some people are like, I feel like I'm at my least healthy well self. Oh yes. That's a good point. So how do you help people work remotely. But also work remotely healthily?

Kerri: Yeah, when COVID head and we all switch to remote, I was like, oh, this is fine. I've been working remotely for 10 years. It was not the same. It was completely different. And I think first to what you just said, like everyone needs to remember that we're still in the middle of a pandemic. And this is not normal remote work. So let's just all, make sure we get that out of the way. But when you work remote. And I know I keep going back to this word intentional, you have to be intentional about your time and you have to set boundaries. So one of the things I personally do when I tell my team, I always block out my mornings. It's workout time. So there are no meetings before a certain time. And that is my workout time. And then once I get to my computer, I usually have a little routine that kind of snaps me into work mode. But then I always encourage people like whenever we can do walking one on ones, you got to get out and you got to make sure you're not sitting in front of your computer all day. And then when it comes to the end of the day, you have to have another routine that says, OK, my day's over, whether it's shut your computer, change your clothes, you just you have to be intentional about it, because if you don't, you will find yourself working until 9:00 PM you will find yourself answering Slack messages at dinner. So it's, I think, those type of things. And making sure that as a leader, you are setting the example for your team. Because if I tell my team to do this. And I'm paying them at 7:00 PM at night, that's what's going to happen. But I also, I want to practice what I preach. And so I think it's important that I am telling my team to set these boundaries, but also doing it myself. I think it helps them take it more seriously, because a lot of them, I think, did struggle with wait, You mean, I can leave my computer at 5:00 pm? Like I can take a lunch? Like, yes, you just have to be intentional about it.

Grace: I love that. I've slipped a little recently. That's why I said, whoops, to be honest, I've recently been like slacking people at 8pm, mostly in response to messages. But I think you're totally right, like the weekend emails, the late night messages or emails, the et et cetera it just it sets the tone or working from vacation when you should really be on really make a point of like, no, I'm actually not working.

Kerri: And I do that too. And I make my team. And it was hard for me, like I think we talked about this when I took vacation last quarter. I didn't touch my computer for two weeks, and it was the first time, I really think in my entire career that I have never touched my computer on vacation and for my team, like they were all shocked when I came back, but they were very excited. And now I can see a lot of them, like when they're off, they're off like they're off.

Grace: That's really good.

Kerri: Yeah and just one other thing to add. In addition to that, I think this has been helpful, too. If I ever send them like a late night message or even an email on the weekend, I always will put in parentheses. This is not to be read or responded to until Monday or tomorrow morning. I just make sure that the expectation is completely gone if I'm sending it at a different time. And that has definitely helped to.

Grace: That is really good. I would love to ask one other question about your routine. You posted something the other day that I loved about daily gratitude and daily what I now added since reading that article, by the way, Kerri, is what I'm letting go of that as well. So I love that highly recommend. But if you're willing to share, what is your routine for, like stepping into work. And then stepping out of work to really be 100% And then 100% out when working from home.

Kerri: So obviously, I'm still struggling with it on my own. But, you know, my routine in the morning is I get up. And this is obviously best case, every day. But what I do, it always happens for the listeners, just that Kerri's life is not a complete chaotic mess. I get up and I, I work out. And I from the time that I work out. And I get ready, I do not let myself look at my computer and I refuse to check my email or Slack before I am ready.

Grace: I love it.

Kerri: So I just that has to be my only time. That has to be I don't think of work and just focus on myself. And then once I'm already, I will usually come into the office. And I will do my little journal in my gratitude list. And then I usually will look at my calendar and I'm like, all right, let's do it. Yeah and I think it also helps to have it at the same time to really make it that routine. And then we are going through a lot of, like, really exciting things. So I think wanting to work hasn't helped me do my end routine as well. But I have a block on my calendar from four to six. And for me, that's no meetings, kid time. I completely step away. I shut my computer and I just make sure that I don't want to in my other life. But, you know, everything else going on. Is is taken care of. And then sometimes I'll come back on my computer and do more work after. I mean, usually. But again, I think having it on my calendar and just following that has been life changing.

Grace: I love that. That's great. And I and by the way, I've also been shifting to walking one on ones, as Ben knows. So I highly recommend that. And I love the gratitude. It really does make a difference. And it shows because Kerri is a gosh darn delight to talk to. I think the gratitude in the journaling has something to do with that.

Kerri: Yes, I'm sure if you would have asked me that three, four years ago before I discovered gratitude, I was much more high strung.

Grace: I'm doing the gratitude stuff. I'm still pretty high strung. But it's a work, miles, and helps. I love lot on this gratitude stuff. It's yes, we actually do it in our weekly all hands, by the way. Carry to I do. And share grateful for. I'm a big ball of cheese.

Kerri: I make my kids do that before bed. My team's too big. Right I'm sick of it. I take up the whole meeting. Right it's, it's fine. When you have nine people on the team. But Yeah, it could be a lot.

Grace: Kerri, This was so amazing. Thank you. I learned a ton. We do have one thing left that we'd like to do. We do it with our guests. It is a speed round where we get to know you outside of work. So whatever comes to mind first, no filters, ok? Yes yes, OK. What brings you joy outside of work?

Kerri: So much brings me joy. But yoga is the very first thing that came to mind. I love it. That's great.

Ben: Are you doing yoga at home right now or...

Kerri: Yes OK, good. Yeah, I do. Peloton, yoga and ice. I used to spin a lot. And I did. I love like body pump but I don't know, this past year. I'm just, I'm trying to do everything that keeps me calm. And I realized, like when I workout and do yoga, I'm in such a more zen space. And when I do like a spin class, I'm like, yeah, let's go. Yeah, I've been doing it at home. It's been wonderful.

Ben: It's awesome. Pivoting totally to another thing that makes me. So A relaxed. Do you have a favorite dessert, like a go to?

Kerri: I love every dessert, anything. Lemon is my absolute favorite, like love lemon cookies and lemon cake and lemon frosting. I love red Velvet cake, too.

Grace: How do you feel about cream cheese frosting out of apples?

Kerri:  I have two in my fridge, two slices of cake, right now in my fridge, just random slices of cake because I like so good.

Grace: I love that. I have gotten a little bit bad about sweet treats at night during covid, to be honest. A little bit of stress. Eating airable. Yes, so good. OK, so this is a good one. Very topical. If you were to work remotely from a foreign country, which one would it be?

Kerri: I'd say Santorini, greece, oh, I went to Santorini a few years ago, and it is the most magical, gorgeous place. And if I could work there every day, I mean, I don't think I get much done, but just have you like you would always be in such a positive zen space. Yeah blue and white.

GraceL Yes, the blue and white. You could go cliff, you could jump off cliffs and tattered the Mediterranean. Did you do the hike? And I think thinking of Santorini with the long ridge hike.

Kerri: Yes well, I don't know if it's the same one, but I did a hike where I walked up to, like, the very my husband didn't even go all the way with me because he was too freaked out. So I did it by myself. It was terrifying, but was one of the most amazing experiences.

Grace: Oh, awesome. I love that.

Ben: That's so fun. Yeah we want to end this episode. Your husband. Yeah OK, what's one word that describes you in high school?

Kerri: Oh God. You lost a good. I'm going to say loss and just leave it at that person.

Grace: That applies to I think everyone. And I love that question, though. That's a new one.

Ben: That is a new one, Kerri  is a safe space.

Kerri: If you want to go more into that, that's going to be like a personal development, self discovery type of effort, though.

Grace: It is a coming of age story and a future episode with Kerri McKinney. All right. Last question, Kerri. I know how you feel about this because we had a long text exchange about it. But I have to ask, do you believe aliens exist? Why or why not?

Kerri: Yes, aliens exist. That's not even a question.

Grace: Go on, please. Educate then on this.

Kerri: Oh, gosh. Aliens exist there. There is a whole other life form that we have no idea about. And Have you ever seen the documentary on Netflix,

Ben: which one I did watch it carry after you recommend one?

Grace: Yeah What was it called again? The alien encounter or something?

Ben: Oh, is it the one on Amazon prime?

Kerri: Is that it's on Netflix. I watched whatever you told me to watch. OK, all the stories that people have a...

Grace: Phenomenon.

Kerri: Yeah, this is going on. That's exactly. Grace, you're going to love this. Yesterday, I was laying in bed and I look over and I'm like, babe, did you see that? And he's like, what? I'm like, it was like, he's like, yeah, it's just like it was like long day. And I'm like, I really want to see an alien every time we went to Santa Fe. And I'm like, now is the time. Like we're going to see a UFO. They exist. I mean, again, this is a whole other episode, but I agree.

Grace: Season two is our real exploration of aliens. I think honestly.

Kerri: And I think that within the next year or two. This year, we see a lot more when it comes to aliens. They're going to release all the stuff from the White House. And then all of this is going to come out of the aliens are going to be like, shoot, they know. Then we're going to start seeing more. And then they're going to come and be like, I can't work today. I saw an alien.

Grace: Yeah and I'm too ashamed of my former belief system.

Kerri: Yeah, I figure if they come to you and you say you don't believe you might get abducted,

Grace: but we all agree on our team that Ben will be that is most likely to be abducted by an alien. And then deny it. That was his award this year.

Ben: Gosh, Kerri you have so many hottakes. Not only are we going to find out more about aliens this year? And you're disappointed in me, clearly. But I'm most likely to be abducted. just like one thing after another.

Kerri: But I do think it's incredibly easy to talk to with aliens. Like the common thing that you would come back and share be so amazing.

Grace: I agree.

Ben: Thank you. I think that's a compliment. Kerri, this has been wonderful. Thank you for coming on with us. We really appreciate it.

Kerri: Thank you for having me. It's been super fun.

Hosts: Thanks for joining us for another episode of start with who, the interview intelligence podcast presented by Luma. Find out more about Luma and how to do the best interviewing of your life and build an amazing team, all starting at Lumateams.com. And if you like this episode, leave us a review or shoot us a note. We'd love to hear from you. Thanks for listening. We'll see you next time.